Behind the Bench: Meet Your Lawyers

Welcome everyone to the very first TC Legal Podcast.

In January, we posted a video where I mentioned that we had an exciting announcement coming up.

We're thrilled to announce that TC Legal will be adding criminal defence to its practice portfolio.

We're very excited to provide this service to members of the public and our clients, and I'm thrilled to introduce my very talented and smart colleague, Kaitlyn Perrin, who will be heading up the criminal defence side of our practice here at TC Legal.

Kaitlyn, welcome.

Thank you. That's a very kind introduction.

How are you feeling?

Good. I'm really excited to get back to doing criminal defence.

That's where I started, and I've been at the Crown Prosecutor's Office for the last four or five years.

It's going to be nice to get back.

Yeah, you should be excited. You're on the cusp of doing some great things.

You mentioned that you've been at the Crown Prosecutor's Office for the last little while.

What prompted you to move back into criminal defence?

I think it's similar to what prompted me to go there in the first place.

I went to the Crown's office during the pandemic, when the economy and what was going to happen were really uncertain.

There was also a fairly significant shift happening in criminal law, and the area that made up most of my practice potentially wasn't going to be as strong as it had been before.

So I made the decision, mostly for personal and financial reasons, to go to the Crown's office.

It was a really wonderful experience.

I had the opportunity to do a lot of things I never would have been able to do as a defence lawyer.

But when I started thinking long term about what I wanted to do for the rest of my career, I realized criminal defence was definitely where I preferred to be and where I felt more natural.

So I made the decision to return.

I may have received a little encouragement from you as well.

Yeah.

I think having experience on both sides of the aisle gives you a very unique perspective.

I started out doing insurance defence myself.

I represented insurance companies against injured parties and then, about nine years ago, switched over to representing injured people against insurance companies.

One of the things we do as lawyers, aside from providing rigorous advocacy and legal advice, is manage our clients' expectations.

If you've actually been on the other side of the room and understand how people on that side think strategically, I think it gives you a unique — almost competitive — advantage when you're advising clients.

What are your thoughts on having practised on both sides?

I definitely think that applies in criminal defence as well.

One of the things I learned very quickly at the Crown's office is just how high the standard of reasonable doubt really is.

It's difficult to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the standard the Crown has to meet in a criminal case.

One of the first experiences I remember as a Crown was running a trial and thinking, "That went great. We did a really good job cross-examining the accused. There was a lot of impeachment."

Then the judge came back and essentially agreed.

They said, "Yes, there were problems with his evidence, but we still don't think the Crown has proven the case beyond a reasonable doubt."

I remember walking out of the courtroom thinking, "This is very different."

From the defence perspective, if you're successful in cross-examination and your strategy creates enough doubt about the evidence, you've generally done what you need to do.

On the Crown side, that's not necessarily enough.

It's a very high burden.

I think that experience taught me to pay even more attention to the small details and make sure I was doing everything possible to meet that burden.

That's very different from approaching the same case from the defence side.

You just finished prosecuting a murder trial.

Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah.

It was a month-long homicide trial involving a stabbing that occurred in 2022.

Obviously homicide trials are extremely serious.

Someone has died, and everybody involved takes that very seriously.

This particular case was a jury trial.

We spent about a week dealing with pre-trial issues, including Charter issues and voluntariness issues, before moving into the jury trial itself.

After approximately 15 or 16 hours of deliberation, which is always stressful, the jury came back with its verdict.

It was definitely the longest experience I had while working at the Crown's office.

It wasn't the longest trial I've ever run, but it was probably the longest continuous trial I had there.

That's heavy subject matter.

Running a murder trial is obviously difficult.

How do you keep yourself sane while dealing with something like that?

Honestly, I think a huge part of it is maintaining boundaries.

I take my work very seriously, and I always have.

But when I go home, I try to make sure the work stays at work.

Sometimes that means going home a little later so I can finish what needs to be done.

But once I get home, I try to relax.

I'll read a book, play with my dog, do some baking — things like that.

I understand you're a bit of a cake connoisseur.

It's definitely a hobby.

I wouldn't say I'm a professional.

I don't know about that.

When I said you were incredibly talented, I was being serious.

We've got some pictures of your cakes here.

Look at that John Deere cake.

I guess you probably spent some time riding around on those growing up on the farm.

I actually grew up around a Minneapolis-Moline tractor, so a little different.

But one of the people I work with in the Strathmore area asked me to make that cake for their daughter's 18th birthday.

Almost all of the cakes I make are for friends and family.

They send me some pictures of what they want and I make it.

I've even made a few during the homicide trial.

I'd make them on the weekends, and it's honestly a really nice way to relax.

I put on the Hamilton soundtrack, put my hair up and spend a few hours in the kitchen.

So I take it you're also a big Paw Patrol fan?

No, actually.

There are so many cakes where someone will say, "Can you make Peppa Pig?" or "Can you make Pusheen the Cat?"

And I'm like, "I have no idea what that is, but if you spell it for me, I'll Google it."

If somebody asks for a lemon cake, at least I know what they're talking about.

But the Paw Patrol cake was for one of my best friend's sons.

He was obsessed with it.

I actually made him two cakes.

One was a nice double-decker cake, and the other had a whole construction theme.

It was pretty cool.

Are you big into PlayStation yourself?

No.

Honestly, I don't play video games.

I think I had a Game Boy when I was a kid, and pretty much all I played was Tetris.

So the PlayStation cake was another one I had to Google.

Maybe we'll get you to make a Game Boy cake next.

Yeah.

That one I'd at least have a general idea of what it looks like.

I wasn't joking when I said you're one of the smartest lawyers I know — and I know a lot of lawyers.

I remember when we were articling.

For people who don't know, before lawyers in Canada can be called to the bar and practise independently, they have to go through a process called articling.

It's essentially an apprenticeship.

You apply to law firms and lawyers, and they take you under their wing for a period of time while you're completing the rest of the process required to become a practising lawyer.

When you're an average student, you put in your applications and you're basically hoping somebody gives you a chance.

With Kaitlyn, it was the opposite.

It felt like the law firms were fighting amongst themselves trying to convince her to article with them.

That's why I'm even more excited that you chose to join us and lead our criminal defence practice.

I think that's a little bit of an exaggeration.

They weren't exactly begging me to come, but I did have a number of options.

What was interesting is that I ultimately turned those options down to go into criminal law.

Some of the places I had applied to outside the province were actually intellectual property firms.

But after volunteering with Student Legal Assistance and getting the opportunity to represent individuals, I did a complete 180 during law school.

I went into law school saying I would never practise criminal law.

Then once I started doing it, I thought, "I'm never going to stop."

Even when COVID hit, it never really occurred to me to move permanently into another area of law.

Criminal law was the area I wanted to practise in.

So you really enjoy the trial advocacy and being in the courtroom?

Yeah.

Being in court is definitely my favourite part of the job.

Whether it's a smaller appearance or a lengthy, in-depth trial, I enjoy being in front of a judge, responding to questions, thinking on my feet and making sure I'm covering everything that needs to be addressed.

That's my favourite part of practising law.

I brought something with me, Kaitlyn.

You probably have this framed somewhere on your wall.

This is the University of Calgary Blackstone Debating Medal.

Fourteen years ago.

Can you believe that?

It's crazy.

It is crazy.

Kaitlyn and I are both alumni of the University of Calgary Faculty of Law.

We graduated together.

Back in 2011, we teamed up and participated in something called the Blackstone Debates, which is an annual debate competition at the University of Calgary.

We ended up winning.

My kids make fun of me about it.

They say, "Kaitlyn probably carried you."

And I tell them, "No. That was the one time in my life where I outshined Kaitlyn."

We were a dynamic duo then, and I'm sure with this collaboration we'll be a dynamic duo moving forward too.

Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to it.

I think I might outshine you a little bit in this particular area of law.

But you can outshine me in personal injury.

Challenge accepted.

Now that you're coming back to criminal defence and practising on the defence side again, what's your vision for where you see your practice going?

Obviously, I'm starting again from the ground up in some respects.

The beginning is going to be about developing that client base and demonstrating that I'm firmly back on the defence side and ready to assist TC Legal's clients and my own clients with matters before the criminal courts.

Once that gets going, my long-term plan is definitely to help build out the firm.

I think mentorship is extremely important.

It's also important to practise with lawyers who share similar principles and approaches so that clients have different options available to them.

Not every client is going to connect perfectly with me, just like not every client is going to connect perfectly with you.

Having different perspectives and personalities within the firm is going to be helpful.

That's the long-term goal.

But for the immediate future, when I left defence for the Crown's office I had a fairly established reputation and client base.

I want to build that back up and then keep moving forward.

Visit TC Legal to learn more about how we can assist you with your legal needs.

Until next time, thank you very much for joining us.